We need only one demand

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One demand

Post by RAB on Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:46 pm

Taking money out of politics, as a single action, would not solve our problems. It is only one of many issues created by a small group of people that control the money creation process, that is, the financiers who own the world's central and large commercial and investment banks. In the U.S., they own the Fed and have leveraged it to buy the three branches of government, military and intelligence services, media, and voting processes.

We must first take back control of our money. The best way to do this is to create a network of public banks -- municipal, county, state, and national -- so that public revenues (taxes) are overseen by public agencies (governments) operating in the public interest. Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study a state bank or create one. See publicbankinginstitute.org and our latest video.

This thread should NOT be combined with the Federal Reserve thread, because just putting the Fed under control of the Congress (as the Constitution prescribes) will not solve the problem. The issue with Kucinich's bill is that it is the American Monetary Institutes' prescription, which is a top-down, Soviet-style model in which the national government would be the only entity that creates new money.

If you look at North Dakota -- which is the only state that owns its own bank, the Bank of North Dakota (BND), and which has the lowest unemployment, biggest budget surplus, zero bank failures, and most community banks per capita in the U.S. -- the BND partners with the local banks to create liquidity on Main Street.

The problem is not fractional reserve lending, it's fractional reserve lending controlled by private interests, and the compound interest charges.

Like Kucinich, Ron Paul wants to end the Fed, but he would put us on the gold standard, which would give back control of money to the same people who now control it. Money is not a commodity; it is a means of accounting for the value we create through labor (and associated production, e.g., machines and computers that we created from natural resources). Creating money is not inflationary if it represents value being created. Interest and other financial legerdemain is inflationary, because they don't represent value.


Last edited by RAB on Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : a few grammatical corrections)

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This thread reveals a commonly accepted fallacy

Post by emadera52 on Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:52 pm

In reading through the posts to this thread I've noticed two things. 1) There are a lot of issues to be addressed. 2) It seems to be generally, though not universally, accepted that the more issues the movement addresses, the broader the base of support will be.

Number 1) is true, number 2) is false. The easiest way to turn off the majority of our potential supporters is to show them a list of every issue raised by members of the movement. The majority has a short attention span and are complacent by nature. The only way to get their attention is with a concise, hard hitting focus on an issue that almost all of them will understand and a large majority will agree with. Here is what I've been promoting.

Who are we? We are the clear majority who have been moved to activism by the corruption that has nearly destroyed our way of life.

What do we want? Remove the corrupting influence of money on our government.

When do we want it? The sooner the better.

How will we get it? We will amend the constitution so that financial influence is prohibited and transparency (full disclosure) on the part all government officials is required.

Why do we want it? So that we will once more have a voice in addressing our many concerns by way of the democratic process.

The Why addresses ALL of the other concerns. It doesn't guarantee that everyone will get everything they want. That's not how democracy works. The result is far worse should the movement insists on presenting potential supporters with a long list of specific concerns. Without strong public support this will become just another failed attempt.


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Corrupting influence of money on government a false issue

Post by RAB on Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:32 am

From the previous post: "What do we want? Remove the corrupting influence of money on our government." I must strongly disagree.

The root cause is private control over the money creation process (the financiers who own the banks that own the Federal Reserve) and what that has bought outright: the three branches of government, the military and intelligence services, the media, and the voting machines.

Taking away certain rights of corporations--unlimited campaign contributions, lobbying, and the revolving door between lobbyists, Congress, and corporations--will not change who controls the U.S. and most of the world, because the powers that be would still own the printing press (the Fed) that makes the money (Federal Reserve Notes, the world reserve currency).

The Fed readily admits that it is a privately owned, for profit monopoly of what they claim is U.S. legal tender: Taking Control of Our Money

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Don't forget the 99%, please!

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:01 am

RAB wrote:From the previous post: "What do we want? Remove the corrupting influence of money on our government." I must strongly disagree.

The root cause is private control over the money creation process (the financiers who own the banks that own the Federal Reserve) and what that has bought outright: the three branches of government, the military and intelligence services, the media, and the voting machines.

Taking away certain rights of corporations--unlimited campaign contributions, lobbying, and the revolving door between lobbyists, Congress, and corporations--will not change who controls the U.S. and most of the world, because the powers that be would still own the printing press (the Fed) that makes the money (Federal Reserve Notes, the world reserve currency).

The Fed readily admits that it is a privately owned, for profit monopoly of what they claim is U.S. legal tender: Taking Control of Our Money

RAB,
I appreciate that you are trying to educate this group on this issue. If we wanted to go there, I could also list some "root issues" which, if addressed, would perhaps achieve broader reform than "Money out of Politics." Nonetheless, as I believe that our declaration should represent the OPINIONS and GRIEVANCES of the 99% as much as possible, I therefore maintain that we focus our message on something that most anyone, anywhere can agree on. That is, that over time, corporate wealth has corrupted our government to the point that ordinary citizens feel that they have no voice.

That's just my two cents.
Peace,
Johanna

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Simple to understand demand

Post by RAB on Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:00 pm

RAB,
I appreciate that you are trying to educate this group on this issue. If we wanted to go there, I could also list some "root issues" which, if addressed, would perhaps achieve broader reform than "Money out of Politics." Nonetheless, as I believe that our declaration should represent the OPINIONS and GRIEVANCES of the 99% as much as possible, I therefore maintain that we focus our message on something that most anyone, anywhere can agree on. That is, that over time, corporate wealth has corrupted our government to the point that ordinary citizens feel that they have no voice.

That's just my two cents.
Peace,
Johanna

Johanna, I agree that the final demand(s) needs to be simple, but it also needs to be effective. Here's a fun way of looking at it that was posted the other day: Occupation flow chart.

We've got until 7/4/12 to come to an agreement, so let's take advantage of this time to understand the root cause, that is, how the financiers came to control the governments, military and intelligence services, media, and voting processes. They did it by controlling the creation of money, which in the U.S. and most of the world (Federal Reserve Notes still being the world reserve currency) means owning the Fed. That's why this started on Wall Street, because the "too big to fail" banks are the biggest stockholders of the Fed.

Through this ownership, they've boiled it down to 147 companies (New Scientist article) that control most of the world's economic activity. Why would we settle for some partial demand that won't fix things?

Best,

Bob

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Like the Flow Chart!

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:08 pm

Thanks for the link, Bob! LOL!

I do want to be effective. What I'm wrestling with in my mind is how to achieve two ultimate goals:
1. How to achieve consensus within this group on a mission/goal and;
2. How to attract as many people as possible to participate in our group, so our convention next July can be truly representative of the 99% and their goals for the Bill of Grievances, or whatever we choose to call it.

I live in northern New Hampshire, a center of fiscal conservatism.
I grew up in central Illinois, a center of fiscal and often social conservatism.
I lived for nearly a decade in Seattle/Bellingham WA where I watched Liberals swallow their own tails again and again by getting hung up on "the real problem." We really are so intense, so educated and so idealistic that we often find ourselves stuck in blind alleys that we can't find our way out of. (I am not in any way suggesting that your argument is a blind alley, BTW, only that this thread reminds me of that potential pitfall!)

What I need to be comfortable with before I set forth and spread the word about this thing is that our message is so compelling, so expressive of people's frustrations and hopes that it will attract the support of everyone from my parents (who always support me) to my cynical brother to my salt-of-the-earth childhood friends and current coworkers to my religiously-leaning friends and acquaintances and gun-toting Tea Party neighbors. I want this without getting lost in a blind alley.

I think this is such a tall order that I'd have a better chance of joining the 1%!
At any rate, my agenda and my fears are on the table. I will continue to contribute with these ideals in mind, knowing full well that nothing we come up with will be perfect. I'll accept "good enough." geek

Peace,
Johanna

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:33 pm

At any rate, my agenda and my fears are on the table. I will continue to contribute with these ideals in mind, knowing full well that nothing we come up with will be perfect. I'll accept "good enough."

Peace,
Johanna

Thanks, Johanna.

If I had to boil down the message, I'd say: Take back control of our money! We recently posted a video with this theme: Taking Control of Our Money.

Bob

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ONE demand, yes.

Post by independentmind on Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:35 pm

One demand.

The problem with OWS currently is two fold.

1: there are too many messages, wants and desires. It confuses the issue and create discourse among the (would be) supporters. Like I, for one, will abandon this movement entirely if mortgage strikes becomes a serious topic.

2: they're yelling at the wrong people. Wall Street is corrupt because Washington wrote laws allowing it to be so.

There needs to be an attention shift. To Washington, forcing them to rewrite policy and get out of bed with Wall Street.

Simple. Direct. To the point. And something everyone in this country wants.

You stop alienating the rich, you stop alienating those who want to be rich, you take the wind out of the ones who call you whiners. You finally have your 99%.

You get the greed and corruption out of the game and everything else you want will fall into place. The political process becomes untainted and you can vote for the people who will take care of all these other "demands".

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Yep...

Post by uncommonfilth on Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:43 pm

independentmind wrote:One demand.

The problem with OWS currently is two fold.

1: there are too many messages, wants and desires. It confuses the issue and create discourse among the (would be) supporters. Like I, for one, will abandon this movement entirely if mortgage strikes becomes a serious topic.

2: they're yelling at the wrong people. Wall Street is corrupt because Washington wrote laws allowing it to be so.

There needs to be an attention shift. To Washington, forcing them to rewrite policy and get out of bed with Wall Street.

Simple. Direct. To the point. And something everyone in this country wants.

You stop alienating the rich, you stop alienating those who want to be rich, you take the wind out of the ones who call you whiners. You finally have your 99%.

You get the greed and corruption out of the game and everything else you want will fall into place.

Not sure about How you're gonna get both of those, my approach has been to demand the transparency neccessary to indentify both the "greed/corruption", and to implement any and all obvious reforms, but these two issues get pretty muddy, very quickly, the fact that we presently have 5 Declarations on 1 Topic, I think says it all...Like Herding Cats.

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I disagree

Post by Adam Brabant on Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:07 pm

I disagree with the idea that we only need one demand. I think we need to think of this as the start of a new political party and need to develop a party platform and clearly define our position on all current important political and social issues.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:47 am

2: they're yelling at the wrong people. Wall Street is corrupt because Washington wrote laws allowing it to be so.

There needs to be an attention shift. To Washington, forcing them to rewrite policy and get out of bed with Wall Street.

Simple. Direct. To the point. And something everyone in this country wants.

You stop alienating the rich, you stop alienating those who want to be rich, you take the wind out of the ones who call you whiners. You finally have your 99%.

You get the greed and corruption out of the game and everything else you want will fall into place.

This is backwards. The financiers control the banks that own the Fed, the key corporations, and the government (Washington DC), the military and intelligence forces, the media, and the voting machines BECAUSE they control the creation of money. If you don't take that back, the system will not change.

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One Demand!

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:41 pm

One demand is the key. It’s simple, "Unassailable", and could be easily explained to people on both sides of the coin. It should contain demands 1-4 without question. The 5th demand is hot button issue that would force our arguments into muddy waters with political zealots on either side. However I think that we should consider inserting #19 into the top 4/5 demands. Should it come to forming our own political party or even really effecting the outcome of any presidential election large pockets of our population would be handicapped by this winner take all (it essentially is regardless of how your state runs elections) electoral college system that is in place.
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:16 pm

One demand is the key. It’s simple, "Unassailable", and could be easily explained to people on both sides of the coin. It should contain demands 1-4 without question. The 5th demand is hot button issue that would force our arguments into muddy waters with political zealots on either side. However I think that we should consider inserting #19 into the top 4/5 demands. Should it come to forming our own political party or even really effecting the outcome of any presidential election large pockets of our population would be handicapped by this winner take all (it essentially is regardless of how your state runs elections) electoral college system that is in place.
RCC

Where is the list to which you are referring?

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:37 pm

I was using the one posted on the The99PercentDeclaration website.

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

Is this not a good one? If there is another list I'll check that out.
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:04 pm

Just so you know, the The99PercentDeclaration is not an official site of the Occupy Wall Street movement, as they note:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the99percentdeclaration-is-not-a-real-ows-working-/

However, that said, I'm okay with this discussion.

I would say that the one demand that is central is #18. The financiers gained control over the key corporations and governments because they gained control over once-sovereign currencies and credit, that is, they own the printing presses. The Federal Reserve is key, because this is still, mostly, the world reserve currency.

Here is a recent study that shows just how pervasive and centralized their control is:

The way [url=http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html ]http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html [/url]

The way it is currently written, #18 is problematic, because the Constitution says that it is the Congress that has the power to create money and regulate its value, not the U.S. Treasury, which is an Executive branch function.

Also, we don't want a top-down system. We need to get liquidity to Main Street. The only state that owns its own bank is North Dakota, which has the lowest unemployment, biggest budget surplus, zero bank failures in the past 10 years, and most community banks per capita. The state does business as the Bank of North Dakota, which helps local banks with loans to small businesses, farms, etc.

Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study or implement publicly owned banks, and more are looking at this, including many municipalities.

For more information, see: http://www.publicbankinginstitute.org

Also see the YouTube video, "Taking Control of Our Money": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvTDTL55K1U

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:18 pm

I’m aware of that. I don’t live on or near Wall Street. I’m “occupying “ where I can, and not asking for permission, and I feel that this is a potential/proper vehicle for the OWS to truly grow into a national “movement” (suggesting directional motion). But…

I understand what you are saying about the Federal Reserve and I agree with you. However, as I suggested in another post, by getting the money out of politics and correcting the voting and electoral process the government will again become beholden to its constituents instead of its Financial Backers. From that point the voice of the people would hold sway and issues such as the potential unconstitutionality of the Federal Reserve can be addressed.
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:46 pm

As long as the financiers own and control the Fed, no laws are going to be passed regarding money in politics. That's why I'm suggesting that the change has to come from the bottom up--local publicly owned banks.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:38 pm

I think you and I are in disagreement of who makes and enacts the laws and policies of our country. I think our politicians have been bought and paid for but I think that they still make they laws, and I believe that generally people want to make things better. If we freed them from their perceived financial obligations they could act on our behalf.
If I am incorrect and indeed the Fed and their financiers make the laws and our politicians are superfluous figureheads then you are correct and the first priority would be to do away with the Fed.
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:13 pm

I agree, RCC, that you have posed the correct question. Let me add a little background to this, since I believe that the financiers call the shots.

Every President that has tried to take public control over the money creation process has been shot (Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, and Kennedy). The pistols failed with Andrew Jackson.

All US and NATO attacks have been on countries that owned their own central bank: Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya. Next on the list are Syria, Iran, Cuba, North Korea, etc.

If you look at all the policies that our demands address, they were all created to benefit the banks and the corporations that they own. Since this includes the companies that make the voting machines (which, a few years back, Congress forced the states and municipalities to buy), this has made it easy to elect the people that serve them. The only two members of Congress that are outside the box are Kucinich and Paul. They got rid of Feingold, McKinney and the rest. During the last election, there was an 85% skew to the right between the exit polls and the "official results":

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Scoop-on-Election-Thef-by-Josh-Mitteldorf-101103-827.html

So, though I believe that doing away with the Fed is the number one priority on a national level, I'm not sure how possible that is. But focusing on it would be educational for those who are wondering what the root cause is.

However, the Public Banking Institute has been focusing on a grassroots campaign for municipal, county, and state banks, where the odds seem to be better. In home rule municipalities and counties, it's even possible to re-institute paper ballots and permit more than just the Dems and Reps to watch the ballots from beginning to end.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:30 pm

We have a first draft of the petition in progress, and it focuses just on the corruption and greed solutions. This is what all the OWS protests are focused on, and I think everyone agrees that we need to stick to that "one demand" if we want all the local GAs to support our petition.

The drafting work group is looking for additional specific solutions that directly address the greed and corruption, and reading all the forum messages to find them will take a lot of time. We could use your help.

If you have suggested a solution that is not included in the original list of grievances, please PM me with the suggestion.

Thanks

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:38 pm

Ray,

First, as I mentioned, there is nothing official about what we are doing, so it is quite possible that the local GA will not support what we come ups with.

Second, the whole point of not specifying demands at this time is to continue the teach-in and better focus on the root causes.

Third, greed and corruption begins with private control over money creation. I can't support demands that would not address the central problem. It would be continuing the lie that plays out every day.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:49 pm

I understand your concerns RAB, and I agree. There is no guarantee the local GAs will support our petition, but we are trying to form alliances with them.

We are also forming a research and education work group to address the root causes, which I hope you will join since you understand that greed and corruption are symptoms not causes.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:52 pm

Thanks for understanding my position, Ray. I'd be happy to join the research and education work group. Bob

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:14 pm

RAB wrote:All US and NATO attacks have been on countries that owned their own central bank: Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya. Next on the list are Syria, Iran, Cuba, North Korea, etc.
You mean all of these famously corrupt 3rd world countries have had state run banks? Bad example, but I’m nitpicking. If i didn't reject your conspiracy theory outright ....

How would you suggest this group go about getting rid of the Fed, what would be your plan of action? I do agree that it should probably be gotten rid of, and I do actually support the Idea of local publicly owned banks but how would we go about making these types of changes?
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:08 pm

Without getting into whether or not these 3rd world countries are more corrupt than 1st and 2nd world countries and whose disinformation, propaganda, and agit-prop we're using as evidence, or whether "conspiracy theory" is a valid term anymore (in formal debate, it would be considered an ad hominem), here are some ideas on a plan of action.

First, because the national political and economic processes are so compromised, and because I believe that taking back control over money is the number one priority, I suggest that our movement needs to concentrate on a grass roots level.

This means municipal-, county-, and state-owned banks. Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study or implement public banks. There are more on the way, and cities, too: (Public Banking Institute).

This is where the rubber meets the road, in communities where you can look your neighbors in the eye. North Dakota is the only state that owns its own bank. It has the lowest unemployment, biggest budget surplus, zero bank failures in the past 10 years, and highest number of independent banks per capita in the U.S. This is because the Bank of North Dakota (BND) leverages the state's revenues to provide liquidity. Some folks say that because ND is rural (670,000 people) that this model doesn't apply, but banking isn't rocket science. This would be like saying that investment and commercial banking only work in NYC. Only 10% of the BND's loans are farm related. Another criticism is that the recent oil discoveries are responsible for ND's economy, but many states have oil and are failing. A good example in Alaska, since it has a comparable population and rural characteristics.

Folks don't understand that all our poverty is unnecessary. There was none in the colonies (according to Ben Franklin), which all had their own banks, until the private bankers that controlled England got Parliament to ban them. This caused a depression and was the real reason for the American revolution.

This is how we can create an alternative while the current banking system implodes. Some communities are also creating their own credit systems (There is one in Switzerland that has done this successfully since the Great Depression.) to act as counter-cyclical ballasts to the worldwide contraction that is being purposefully perpetrated. This is what the bankers call "the business cycle." They inflate the money supply to create assets, then they choke the money supply to cause unemployment, bankruptcies, foreclosures, and bad credit, so they can steal the fruits of our labor at fire sale prices. As Andrew Mellon said, "During depressions, assets return to their rightful owners." The financiers believe they are the rightful owners because they own our once-sovereign currency and sell it to us at a profit (usury).

Public banks have worked very well down through the ages, but have been consistently attacked by the private banks. Australia and Canada both had public banks until shortly after WWII. Japan and New Zealand still do. There are public banks in Germany that are under attack because the private banks say they can't compete with them. This is because the profits aren't siphoned off for private gain, but reinvested in the community, which mostly negates the inflationary effects of the low interest that these banks charge.

That's it, really. Start at a grassroots level, taking back control of our money. This may require that the states fight the federal government. When North Dakota started its own bank in 1919, the case went to the Supreme Court, but ND won. This way we could create a network of public banks that would boost the commonwealth and provide a means of changing other things.

The strength of the Occupy movement is dependent on the strength of its local organizations and the ability for all these groups to act together (such as on October 15th and, hopefully, November 5th) to have an impact. If we are able to create pressure through local change, who knows, maybe we can buy back or otherwise end the Fed and create a dialectic of local and national change. But as long as the financiers own the central banks, they can, with a few keystrokes, buy or fund whatever they want, as the recent mini-audit of the Fed showed.

Thanks for your consideration!


Last edited by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : minor typos)

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Re: We need only one demand

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