We need only one demand

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Like the Flow Chart!

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:08 pm

Thanks for the link, Bob! LOL!

I do want to be effective. What I'm wrestling with in my mind is how to achieve two ultimate goals:
1. How to achieve consensus within this group on a mission/goal and;
2. How to attract as many people as possible to participate in our group, so our convention next July can be truly representative of the 99% and their goals for the Bill of Grievances, or whatever we choose to call it.

I live in northern New Hampshire, a center of fiscal conservatism.
I grew up in central Illinois, a center of fiscal and often social conservatism.
I lived for nearly a decade in Seattle/Bellingham WA where I watched Liberals swallow their own tails again and again by getting hung up on "the real problem." We really are so intense, so educated and so idealistic that we often find ourselves stuck in blind alleys that we can't find our way out of. (I am not in any way suggesting that your argument is a blind alley, BTW, only that this thread reminds me of that potential pitfall!)

What I need to be comfortable with before I set forth and spread the word about this thing is that our message is so compelling, so expressive of people's frustrations and hopes that it will attract the support of everyone from my parents (who always support me) to my cynical brother to my salt-of-the-earth childhood friends and current coworkers to my religiously-leaning friends and acquaintances and gun-toting Tea Party neighbors. I want this without getting lost in a blind alley.

I think this is such a tall order that I'd have a better chance of joining the 1%!
At any rate, my agenda and my fears are on the table. I will continue to contribute with these ideals in mind, knowing full well that nothing we come up with will be perfect. I'll accept "good enough." geek

Peace,
Johanna

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:33 pm

At any rate, my agenda and my fears are on the table. I will continue to contribute with these ideals in mind, knowing full well that nothing we come up with will be perfect. I'll accept "good enough."

Peace,
Johanna

Thanks, Johanna.

If I had to boil down the message, I'd say: Take back control of our money! We recently posted a video with this theme: Taking Control of Our Money.

Bob

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ONE demand, yes.

Post by independentmind on Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:35 pm

One demand.

The problem with OWS currently is two fold.

1: there are too many messages, wants and desires. It confuses the issue and create discourse among the (would be) supporters. Like I, for one, will abandon this movement entirely if mortgage strikes becomes a serious topic.

2: they're yelling at the wrong people. Wall Street is corrupt because Washington wrote laws allowing it to be so.

There needs to be an attention shift. To Washington, forcing them to rewrite policy and get out of bed with Wall Street.

Simple. Direct. To the point. And something everyone in this country wants.

You stop alienating the rich, you stop alienating those who want to be rich, you take the wind out of the ones who call you whiners. You finally have your 99%.

You get the greed and corruption out of the game and everything else you want will fall into place. The political process becomes untainted and you can vote for the people who will take care of all these other "demands".

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Yep...

Post by uncommonfilth on Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:43 pm

independentmind wrote:One demand.

The problem with OWS currently is two fold.

1: there are too many messages, wants and desires. It confuses the issue and create discourse among the (would be) supporters. Like I, for one, will abandon this movement entirely if mortgage strikes becomes a serious topic.

2: they're yelling at the wrong people. Wall Street is corrupt because Washington wrote laws allowing it to be so.

There needs to be an attention shift. To Washington, forcing them to rewrite policy and get out of bed with Wall Street.

Simple. Direct. To the point. And something everyone in this country wants.

You stop alienating the rich, you stop alienating those who want to be rich, you take the wind out of the ones who call you whiners. You finally have your 99%.

You get the greed and corruption out of the game and everything else you want will fall into place.

Not sure about How you're gonna get both of those, my approach has been to demand the transparency neccessary to indentify both the "greed/corruption", and to implement any and all obvious reforms, but these two issues get pretty muddy, very quickly, the fact that we presently have 5 Declarations on 1 Topic, I think says it all...Like Herding Cats.

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I disagree

Post by Adam Brabant on Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:07 pm

I disagree with the idea that we only need one demand. I think we need to think of this as the start of a new political party and need to develop a party platform and clearly define our position on all current important political and social issues.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:47 am

2: they're yelling at the wrong people. Wall Street is corrupt because Washington wrote laws allowing it to be so.

There needs to be an attention shift. To Washington, forcing them to rewrite policy and get out of bed with Wall Street.

Simple. Direct. To the point. And something everyone in this country wants.

You stop alienating the rich, you stop alienating those who want to be rich, you take the wind out of the ones who call you whiners. You finally have your 99%.

You get the greed and corruption out of the game and everything else you want will fall into place.

This is backwards. The financiers control the banks that own the Fed, the key corporations, and the government (Washington DC), the military and intelligence forces, the media, and the voting machines BECAUSE they control the creation of money. If you don't take that back, the system will not change.

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One Demand!

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:41 pm

One demand is the key. It’s simple, "Unassailable", and could be easily explained to people on both sides of the coin. It should contain demands 1-4 without question. The 5th demand is hot button issue that would force our arguments into muddy waters with political zealots on either side. However I think that we should consider inserting #19 into the top 4/5 demands. Should it come to forming our own political party or even really effecting the outcome of any presidential election large pockets of our population would be handicapped by this winner take all (it essentially is regardless of how your state runs elections) electoral college system that is in place.
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:16 pm

One demand is the key. It’s simple, "Unassailable", and could be easily explained to people on both sides of the coin. It should contain demands 1-4 without question. The 5th demand is hot button issue that would force our arguments into muddy waters with political zealots on either side. However I think that we should consider inserting #19 into the top 4/5 demands. Should it come to forming our own political party or even really effecting the outcome of any presidential election large pockets of our population would be handicapped by this winner take all (it essentially is regardless of how your state runs elections) electoral college system that is in place.
RCC

Where is the list to which you are referring?

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:37 pm

I was using the one posted on the The99PercentDeclaration website.

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

Is this not a good one? If there is another list I'll check that out.
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:04 pm

Just so you know, the The99PercentDeclaration is not an official site of the Occupy Wall Street movement, as they note:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the99percentdeclaration-is-not-a-real-ows-working-/

However, that said, I'm okay with this discussion.

I would say that the one demand that is central is #18. The financiers gained control over the key corporations and governments because they gained control over once-sovereign currencies and credit, that is, they own the printing presses. The Federal Reserve is key, because this is still, mostly, the world reserve currency.

Here is a recent study that shows just how pervasive and centralized their control is:

The way [url=http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html ]http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html [/url]

The way it is currently written, #18 is problematic, because the Constitution says that it is the Congress that has the power to create money and regulate its value, not the U.S. Treasury, which is an Executive branch function.

Also, we don't want a top-down system. We need to get liquidity to Main Street. The only state that owns its own bank is North Dakota, which has the lowest unemployment, biggest budget surplus, zero bank failures in the past 10 years, and most community banks per capita. The state does business as the Bank of North Dakota, which helps local banks with loans to small businesses, farms, etc.

Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study or implement publicly owned banks, and more are looking at this, including many municipalities.

For more information, see: http://www.publicbankinginstitute.org

Also see the YouTube video, "Taking Control of Our Money": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvTDTL55K1U

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:18 pm

I’m aware of that. I don’t live on or near Wall Street. I’m “occupying “ where I can, and not asking for permission, and I feel that this is a potential/proper vehicle for the OWS to truly grow into a national “movement” (suggesting directional motion). But…

I understand what you are saying about the Federal Reserve and I agree with you. However, as I suggested in another post, by getting the money out of politics and correcting the voting and electoral process the government will again become beholden to its constituents instead of its Financial Backers. From that point the voice of the people would hold sway and issues such as the potential unconstitutionality of the Federal Reserve can be addressed.
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:46 pm

As long as the financiers own and control the Fed, no laws are going to be passed regarding money in politics. That's why I'm suggesting that the change has to come from the bottom up--local publicly owned banks.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:38 pm

I think you and I are in disagreement of who makes and enacts the laws and policies of our country. I think our politicians have been bought and paid for but I think that they still make they laws, and I believe that generally people want to make things better. If we freed them from their perceived financial obligations they could act on our behalf.
If I am incorrect and indeed the Fed and their financiers make the laws and our politicians are superfluous figureheads then you are correct and the first priority would be to do away with the Fed.
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:13 pm

I agree, RCC, that you have posed the correct question. Let me add a little background to this, since I believe that the financiers call the shots.

Every President that has tried to take public control over the money creation process has been shot (Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, and Kennedy). The pistols failed with Andrew Jackson.

All US and NATO attacks have been on countries that owned their own central bank: Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya. Next on the list are Syria, Iran, Cuba, North Korea, etc.

If you look at all the policies that our demands address, they were all created to benefit the banks and the corporations that they own. Since this includes the companies that make the voting machines (which, a few years back, Congress forced the states and municipalities to buy), this has made it easy to elect the people that serve them. The only two members of Congress that are outside the box are Kucinich and Paul. They got rid of Feingold, McKinney and the rest. During the last election, there was an 85% skew to the right between the exit polls and the "official results":

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Scoop-on-Election-Thef-by-Josh-Mitteldorf-101103-827.html

So, though I believe that doing away with the Fed is the number one priority on a national level, I'm not sure how possible that is. But focusing on it would be educational for those who are wondering what the root cause is.

However, the Public Banking Institute has been focusing on a grassroots campaign for municipal, county, and state banks, where the odds seem to be better. In home rule municipalities and counties, it's even possible to re-institute paper ballots and permit more than just the Dems and Reps to watch the ballots from beginning to end.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:30 pm

We have a first draft of the petition in progress, and it focuses just on the corruption and greed solutions. This is what all the OWS protests are focused on, and I think everyone agrees that we need to stick to that "one demand" if we want all the local GAs to support our petition.

The drafting work group is looking for additional specific solutions that directly address the greed and corruption, and reading all the forum messages to find them will take a lot of time. We could use your help.

If you have suggested a solution that is not included in the original list of grievances, please PM me with the suggestion.

Thanks

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:38 pm

Ray,

First, as I mentioned, there is nothing official about what we are doing, so it is quite possible that the local GA will not support what we come ups with.

Second, the whole point of not specifying demands at this time is to continue the teach-in and better focus on the root causes.

Third, greed and corruption begins with private control over money creation. I can't support demands that would not address the central problem. It would be continuing the lie that plays out every day.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:49 pm

I understand your concerns RAB, and I agree. There is no guarantee the local GAs will support our petition, but we are trying to form alliances with them.

We are also forming a research and education work group to address the root causes, which I hope you will join since you understand that greed and corruption are symptoms not causes.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:52 pm

Thanks for understanding my position, Ray. I'd be happy to join the research and education work group. Bob

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:14 pm

RAB wrote:All US and NATO attacks have been on countries that owned their own central bank: Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya. Next on the list are Syria, Iran, Cuba, North Korea, etc.
You mean all of these famously corrupt 3rd world countries have had state run banks? Bad example, but I’m nitpicking. If i didn't reject your conspiracy theory outright ....

How would you suggest this group go about getting rid of the Fed, what would be your plan of action? I do agree that it should probably be gotten rid of, and I do actually support the Idea of local publicly owned banks but how would we go about making these types of changes?
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:08 pm

Without getting into whether or not these 3rd world countries are more corrupt than 1st and 2nd world countries and whose disinformation, propaganda, and agit-prop we're using as evidence, or whether "conspiracy theory" is a valid term anymore (in formal debate, it would be considered an ad hominem), here are some ideas on a plan of action.

First, because the national political and economic processes are so compromised, and because I believe that taking back control over money is the number one priority, I suggest that our movement needs to concentrate on a grass roots level.

This means municipal-, county-, and state-owned banks. Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study or implement public banks. There are more on the way, and cities, too: (Public Banking Institute).

This is where the rubber meets the road, in communities where you can look your neighbors in the eye. North Dakota is the only state that owns its own bank. It has the lowest unemployment, biggest budget surplus, zero bank failures in the past 10 years, and highest number of independent banks per capita in the U.S. This is because the Bank of North Dakota (BND) leverages the state's revenues to provide liquidity. Some folks say that because ND is rural (670,000 people) that this model doesn't apply, but banking isn't rocket science. This would be like saying that investment and commercial banking only work in NYC. Only 10% of the BND's loans are farm related. Another criticism is that the recent oil discoveries are responsible for ND's economy, but many states have oil and are failing. A good example in Alaska, since it has a comparable population and rural characteristics.

Folks don't understand that all our poverty is unnecessary. There was none in the colonies (according to Ben Franklin), which all had their own banks, until the private bankers that controlled England got Parliament to ban them. This caused a depression and was the real reason for the American revolution.

This is how we can create an alternative while the current banking system implodes. Some communities are also creating their own credit systems (There is one in Switzerland that has done this successfully since the Great Depression.) to act as counter-cyclical ballasts to the worldwide contraction that is being purposefully perpetrated. This is what the bankers call "the business cycle." They inflate the money supply to create assets, then they choke the money supply to cause unemployment, bankruptcies, foreclosures, and bad credit, so they can steal the fruits of our labor at fire sale prices. As Andrew Mellon said, "During depressions, assets return to their rightful owners." The financiers believe they are the rightful owners because they own our once-sovereign currency and sell it to us at a profit (usury).

Public banks have worked very well down through the ages, but have been consistently attacked by the private banks. Australia and Canada both had public banks until shortly after WWII. Japan and New Zealand still do. There are public banks in Germany that are under attack because the private banks say they can't compete with them. This is because the profits aren't siphoned off for private gain, but reinvested in the community, which mostly negates the inflationary effects of the low interest that these banks charge.

That's it, really. Start at a grassroots level, taking back control of our money. This may require that the states fight the federal government. When North Dakota started its own bank in 1919, the case went to the Supreme Court, but ND won. This way we could create a network of public banks that would boost the commonwealth and provide a means of changing other things.

The strength of the Occupy movement is dependent on the strength of its local organizations and the ability for all these groups to act together (such as on October 15th and, hopefully, November 5th) to have an impact. If we are able to create pressure through local change, who knows, maybe we can buy back or otherwise end the Fed and create a dialectic of local and national change. But as long as the financiers own the central banks, they can, with a few keystrokes, buy or fund whatever they want, as the recent mini-audit of the Fed showed.

Thanks for your consideration!


Last edited by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : minor typos)

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:07 pm

Public Banks are a great solution RAB (Bob)! I'm making a copy of your message, but you could really help the drafting work group if you would write a specific solution suggestion for the Banking problem worded to directly address the issues of greed and corruption.

Thanks!


Last edited by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:53 pm

What is greed and corruption, where does it come from, and how do we overcome these forces?

As living beings, the number one priority of our instincts and ego is to preserve the self. When there is scarcity, greed manifests to monopolize resources in the interest of specific individuals and groups to the exclusion of others. In a societal context, individual and group greed becomes systematic corruption.

In our present world, scarcity begins with private control over the money creation process. About 250 years ago, small groups of people gained control over the once-sovereign right of nations to regulate currency and credit. This control enabled these small groups to literally create assets by inflating the supply of currency and then seizing these assets by deflating the supply of currency.

Because money, "the circulating medium," as Jefferson called it, has generally replaced barter as the means of trading labor and its products, it has become the life blood of societal sustainability, much as air, water, and food are the sine qua non for life.

In essence, money should be a public utility like water and electricity, to keep the flow of value created by our labor (and its adjuncts, such as machine and computer related production) circulating; instead, it is controlled and manipulated by private parties, driven by greed and corruption, to create scarcity.

It was not always this way in America. According to Benjamin Franklin, there was no poverty here until the British banks got Parliament to forbid the colonies from controlling their own currency and credit. This caused a depression and was the single greatest cause of the American revolution.

We are now suffering from the same greed and corruption, with a private monopoly over the money creation process. This begins with the "too big to fail" banks on Wall Street (and in Europe) that own the Federal Reserve and use it, not only to create and steal assets, but to control key corporations, the three branches of our government, our military and intelligence services, the mass media, and the voting processes.

We don't even know how many trillions or quadrillions of dollars this small group has created through a few key strokes on their computers and secreted away for their war chests. But we do know that as long as these private parties control our currency and credit, any other reforms that we may institute will be undermined by their vast power.

Given the control that the financiers have over the international and national situation, our best recourse is to organize on a grassroots level, which is why the Occupy movement is such an ingenious and welcome development! By holding off on specific demands and making everyone a leader, the movement has, so far, resisted hijacking, such as what happened with the Tea Party, where righteously angry people have been manipulated to vote against their own interests.

There is already a growing movement in place to create local economic independence. It's called public banking. There is one state that owns its own bank -- North Dakota, which created the Bank of North Dakota (BND) in 1919.

North Dakota has the lowest unemployment, biggest budget surplus, zero bank failures in the past 10 years, and most independent banks per capita in the U.S. -- all because the BND works with independent local banks to create liquidity on Main Street.

There are detractors that claim this is due to the discovery and extraction of oil in the past 10 years, but all other oil states are suffering. Other detractors claim that North Dakota is a rural state and that such a model wouldn't work elsewhere, but only 10% of the BND's loans are agricultural. Banking isn't rocket science. Saying that the North Dakota model would not work elsewhere is like saying that commercial and investment banking only works on Wall Street.

In fact, public banking has worked very well down through the ages, which is why it has been consistently attacked by private banking. Currently, in Germany, commercials banks are seeking to ban public banks because they say they can't compete with them. This is because public banks don't siphon off profits for private gain.

Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study or implement publicly owned banks. More are considering it. So are a number of cities (see http://www.publicbankinginstitute.org). Like the BND, municipal-, county-, and state-owned banks would oversee public revenues, funds, and assets in the public interest.

A number of cities and regions in the U.S. and around the world are also instituting local credit trading (alternate currencies) to boost economic activity. This has helped over come the contraction in Federal Reserve Notes (the money supply is $3 Trillion dollars less than before the crash in '08).

We need to take back control of our money! This will enable us to build strong communities and a grass roots organizations that will be capable of national change. This is how we can regain the prosperity of our forebears and evolve beyond greed and corruption.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:25 pm

That is a well written message Bob, as are a number of other messages in this thread. We need to break this message thread down however, and move the diversity of suggestions to their appropriate discussion threads so everyone interested in that topic (Banking in this case) can comment and reach some sort of consensus on how to make some specific solution suggestions that address the greed and corruption.

So far, the only specific solution suggestions I have for banking are;

1) Eliminate private/corporate banks

2) Start some public banks

To satisfy the need for public input and consensus, the banking issues and any proposed solutions need to be discussed and voted on in the discussion group covering banking.

Then the drafting work group can include the specific banking solutions in the petition draft, which should then be presented to the entire forum for criticism and each petition grievance voted on.

There will no doubt be some criticisms of the proposed solutions by the larger forum, so these criticisms should then be discussed by each grievance group again, and their solutions modified as necessary.

This is going to be a long process with a number of petition drafts, but it will be worth the effort if the entire country backs our petition and we can make the government adopt the changes.


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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:41 pm

Thanks, Ray. Just let me know what you'd like me to do -- cut and paste this into the banking discussion?

I was just trying to address you request to tie greed and corruption to the banking solution.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:32 am

You can repost it in the banking thread(s) and start discussing it there if you want Bob.

Molly has been moving messages around already, but I'm going to suggest to administration that we reorganize a lot of the discussions if they haven't got that planned yet.

We will be moving to a better site with more functionality too, and a lot of the new changes will happen then.

I can see that message ending up in the research and educational area too. Keep up the good work Bob! :-)



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Re: We need only one demand

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