We need only one demand

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:38 pm

Ray,

First, as I mentioned, there is nothing official about what we are doing, so it is quite possible that the local GA will not support what we come ups with.

Second, the whole point of not specifying demands at this time is to continue the teach-in and better focus on the root causes.

Third, greed and corruption begins with private control over money creation. I can't support demands that would not address the central problem. It would be continuing the lie that plays out every day.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:49 pm

I understand your concerns RAB, and I agree. There is no guarantee the local GAs will support our petition, but we are trying to form alliances with them.

We are also forming a research and education work group to address the root causes, which I hope you will join since you understand that greed and corruption are symptoms not causes.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:52 pm

Thanks for understanding my position, Ray. I'd be happy to join the research and education work group. Bob

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:14 pm

RAB wrote:All US and NATO attacks have been on countries that owned their own central bank: Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya. Next on the list are Syria, Iran, Cuba, North Korea, etc.
You mean all of these famously corrupt 3rd world countries have had state run banks? Bad example, but I’m nitpicking. If i didn't reject your conspiracy theory outright ....

How would you suggest this group go about getting rid of the Fed, what would be your plan of action? I do agree that it should probably be gotten rid of, and I do actually support the Idea of local publicly owned banks but how would we go about making these types of changes?
RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:08 pm

Without getting into whether or not these 3rd world countries are more corrupt than 1st and 2nd world countries and whose disinformation, propaganda, and agit-prop we're using as evidence, or whether "conspiracy theory" is a valid term anymore (in formal debate, it would be considered an ad hominem), here are some ideas on a plan of action.

First, because the national political and economic processes are so compromised, and because I believe that taking back control over money is the number one priority, I suggest that our movement needs to concentrate on a grass roots level.

This means municipal-, county-, and state-owned banks. Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study or implement public banks. There are more on the way, and cities, too: (Public Banking Institute).

This is where the rubber meets the road, in communities where you can look your neighbors in the eye. North Dakota is the only state that owns its own bank. It has the lowest unemployment, biggest budget surplus, zero bank failures in the past 10 years, and highest number of independent banks per capita in the U.S. This is because the Bank of North Dakota (BND) leverages the state's revenues to provide liquidity. Some folks say that because ND is rural (670,000 people) that this model doesn't apply, but banking isn't rocket science. This would be like saying that investment and commercial banking only work in NYC. Only 10% of the BND's loans are farm related. Another criticism is that the recent oil discoveries are responsible for ND's economy, but many states have oil and are failing. A good example in Alaska, since it has a comparable population and rural characteristics.

Folks don't understand that all our poverty is unnecessary. There was none in the colonies (according to Ben Franklin), which all had their own banks, until the private bankers that controlled England got Parliament to ban them. This caused a depression and was the real reason for the American revolution.

This is how we can create an alternative while the current banking system implodes. Some communities are also creating their own credit systems (There is one in Switzerland that has done this successfully since the Great Depression.) to act as counter-cyclical ballasts to the worldwide contraction that is being purposefully perpetrated. This is what the bankers call "the business cycle." They inflate the money supply to create assets, then they choke the money supply to cause unemployment, bankruptcies, foreclosures, and bad credit, so they can steal the fruits of our labor at fire sale prices. As Andrew Mellon said, "During depressions, assets return to their rightful owners." The financiers believe they are the rightful owners because they own our once-sovereign currency and sell it to us at a profit (usury).

Public banks have worked very well down through the ages, but have been consistently attacked by the private banks. Australia and Canada both had public banks until shortly after WWII. Japan and New Zealand still do. There are public banks in Germany that are under attack because the private banks say they can't compete with them. This is because the profits aren't siphoned off for private gain, but reinvested in the community, which mostly negates the inflationary effects of the low interest that these banks charge.

That's it, really. Start at a grassroots level, taking back control of our money. This may require that the states fight the federal government. When North Dakota started its own bank in 1919, the case went to the Supreme Court, but ND won. This way we could create a network of public banks that would boost the commonwealth and provide a means of changing other things.

The strength of the Occupy movement is dependent on the strength of its local organizations and the ability for all these groups to act together (such as on October 15th and, hopefully, November 5th) to have an impact. If we are able to create pressure through local change, who knows, maybe we can buy back or otherwise end the Fed and create a dialectic of local and national change. But as long as the financiers own the central banks, they can, with a few keystrokes, buy or fund whatever they want, as the recent mini-audit of the Fed showed.

Thanks for your consideration!


Last edited by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : minor typos)

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:07 pm

Public Banks are a great solution RAB (Bob)! I'm making a copy of your message, but you could really help the drafting work group if you would write a specific solution suggestion for the Banking problem worded to directly address the issues of greed and corruption.

Thanks!


Last edited by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:53 pm

What is greed and corruption, where does it come from, and how do we overcome these forces?

As living beings, the number one priority of our instincts and ego is to preserve the self. When there is scarcity, greed manifests to monopolize resources in the interest of specific individuals and groups to the exclusion of others. In a societal context, individual and group greed becomes systematic corruption.

In our present world, scarcity begins with private control over the money creation process. About 250 years ago, small groups of people gained control over the once-sovereign right of nations to regulate currency and credit. This control enabled these small groups to literally create assets by inflating the supply of currency and then seizing these assets by deflating the supply of currency.

Because money, "the circulating medium," as Jefferson called it, has generally replaced barter as the means of trading labor and its products, it has become the life blood of societal sustainability, much as air, water, and food are the sine qua non for life.

In essence, money should be a public utility like water and electricity, to keep the flow of value created by our labor (and its adjuncts, such as machine and computer related production) circulating; instead, it is controlled and manipulated by private parties, driven by greed and corruption, to create scarcity.

It was not always this way in America. According to Benjamin Franklin, there was no poverty here until the British banks got Parliament to forbid the colonies from controlling their own currency and credit. This caused a depression and was the single greatest cause of the American revolution.

We are now suffering from the same greed and corruption, with a private monopoly over the money creation process. This begins with the "too big to fail" banks on Wall Street (and in Europe) that own the Federal Reserve and use it, not only to create and steal assets, but to control key corporations, the three branches of our government, our military and intelligence services, the mass media, and the voting processes.

We don't even know how many trillions or quadrillions of dollars this small group has created through a few key strokes on their computers and secreted away for their war chests. But we do know that as long as these private parties control our currency and credit, any other reforms that we may institute will be undermined by their vast power.

Given the control that the financiers have over the international and national situation, our best recourse is to organize on a grassroots level, which is why the Occupy movement is such an ingenious and welcome development! By holding off on specific demands and making everyone a leader, the movement has, so far, resisted hijacking, such as what happened with the Tea Party, where righteously angry people have been manipulated to vote against their own interests.

There is already a growing movement in place to create local economic independence. It's called public banking. There is one state that owns its own bank -- North Dakota, which created the Bank of North Dakota (BND) in 1919.

North Dakota has the lowest unemployment, biggest budget surplus, zero bank failures in the past 10 years, and most independent banks per capita in the U.S. -- all because the BND works with independent local banks to create liquidity on Main Street.

There are detractors that claim this is due to the discovery and extraction of oil in the past 10 years, but all other oil states are suffering. Other detractors claim that North Dakota is a rural state and that such a model wouldn't work elsewhere, but only 10% of the BND's loans are agricultural. Banking isn't rocket science. Saying that the North Dakota model would not work elsewhere is like saying that commercial and investment banking only works on Wall Street.

In fact, public banking has worked very well down through the ages, which is why it has been consistently attacked by private banking. Currently, in Germany, commercials banks are seeking to ban public banks because they say they can't compete with them. This is because public banks don't siphon off profits for private gain.

Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study or implement publicly owned banks. More are considering it. So are a number of cities (see http://www.publicbankinginstitute.org). Like the BND, municipal-, county-, and state-owned banks would oversee public revenues, funds, and assets in the public interest.

A number of cities and regions in the U.S. and around the world are also instituting local credit trading (alternate currencies) to boost economic activity. This has helped over come the contraction in Federal Reserve Notes (the money supply is $3 Trillion dollars less than before the crash in '08).

We need to take back control of our money! This will enable us to build strong communities and a grass roots organizations that will be capable of national change. This is how we can regain the prosperity of our forebears and evolve beyond greed and corruption.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:25 pm

That is a well written message Bob, as are a number of other messages in this thread. We need to break this message thread down however, and move the diversity of suggestions to their appropriate discussion threads so everyone interested in that topic (Banking in this case) can comment and reach some sort of consensus on how to make some specific solution suggestions that address the greed and corruption.

So far, the only specific solution suggestions I have for banking are;

1) Eliminate private/corporate banks

2) Start some public banks

To satisfy the need for public input and consensus, the banking issues and any proposed solutions need to be discussed and voted on in the discussion group covering banking.

Then the drafting work group can include the specific banking solutions in the petition draft, which should then be presented to the entire forum for criticism and each petition grievance voted on.

There will no doubt be some criticisms of the proposed solutions by the larger forum, so these criticisms should then be discussed by each grievance group again, and their solutions modified as necessary.

This is going to be a long process with a number of petition drafts, but it will be worth the effort if the entire country backs our petition and we can make the government adopt the changes.


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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:41 pm

Thanks, Ray. Just let me know what you'd like me to do -- cut and paste this into the banking discussion?

I was just trying to address you request to tie greed and corruption to the banking solution.

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RayArrowood on Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:32 am

You can repost it in the banking thread(s) and start discussing it there if you want Bob.

Molly has been moving messages around already, but I'm going to suggest to administration that we reorganize a lot of the discussions if they haven't got that planned yet.

We will be moving to a better site with more functionality too, and a lot of the new changes will happen then.

I can see that message ending up in the research and educational area too. Keep up the good work Bob! :-)



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Re: We need only one demand

Post by BangTango on Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:20 am

Our one demand is that you stop demanding our demands

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I have a winner!! well done!

Post by uncommonfilth on Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:25 am

RAB wrote:Without getting into whether or not these 3rd world countries are more corrupt than 1st and 2nd world countries and whose disinformation, propaganda, and agit-prop we're using as evidence, or whether "conspiracy theory" is a valid term anymore (in formal debate, it would be considered an ad hominem), here are some ideas on a plan of action.

First, because the national political and economic processes are so compromised, and because I believe that taking back control over money is the number one priority, I suggest that our movement needs to concentrate on a grass roots level.

This means municipal-, county-, and state-owned banks. Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study or implement public banks. There are more on the way, and cities, too: (Public Banking Institute).

This is where the rubber meets the road, in communities where you can look your neighbors in the eye. North Dakota is the only state that owns its own bank. It has the lowest unemployment, biggest budget surplus, zero bank failures in the past 10 years, and highest number of independent banks per capita in the U.S. This is because the Bank of North Dakota (BND) leverages the state's revenues to provide liquidity. Some folks say that because ND is rural (670,000 people) that this model doesn't apply, but banking isn't rocket science. This would be like saying that investment and commercial banking only work in NYC. Only 10% of the BND's loans are farm related. Another criticism is that the recent oil discoveries are responsible for ND's economy, but many states have oil and are failing. A good example in Alaska, since it has a comparable population and rural characteristics.

Folks don't understand that all our poverty is unnecessary. There was none in the colonies (according to Ben Franklin), which all had their own banks, until the private bankers that controlled England got Parliament to ban them. This caused a depression and was the real reason for the American revolution.

This is how we can create an alternative while the current banking system implodes. Some communities are also creating their own credit systems (There is one in Switzerland that has done this successfully since the Great Depression.) to act as counter-cyclical ballasts to the worldwide contraction that is being purposefully perpetrated. This is what the bankers call "the business cycle." They inflate the money supply to create assets, then they choke the money supply to cause unemployment, bankruptcies, foreclosures, and bad credit, so they can steal the fruits of our labor at fire sale prices. As Andrew Mellon said, "During depressions, assets return to their rightful owners." The financiers believe they are the rightful owners because they own our once-sovereign currency and sell it to us at a profit (usury).

Public banks have worked very well down through the ages, but have been consistently attacked by the private banks. Australia and Canada both had public banks until shortly after WWII. Japan and New Zealand still do. There are public banks in Germany that are under attack because the private banks say they can't compete with them. This is because the profits aren't siphoned off for private gain, but reinvested in the community, which mostly negates the inflationary effects of the low interest that these banks charge.

That's it, really. Start at a grassroots level, taking back control of our money. This may require that the states fight the federal government. When North Dakota started its own bank in 1919, the case went to the Supreme Court, but ND won. This way we could create a network of public banks that would boost the commonwealth and provide a means of changing other things.

The strength of the Occupy movement is dependent on the strength of its local organizations and the ability for all these groups to act together (such as on October 15th and, hopefully, November 5th) to have an impact. If we are able to create pressure through local change, who knows, maybe we can buy back or otherwise end the Fed and create a dialectic of local and national change. But as long as the financiers own the central banks, they can, with a few keystrokes, buy or fund whatever they want, as the recent mini-audit of the Fed showed.

Thanks for your consideration!

That's the best response/solution I've heard from an "end the fed" person, to date..Still by your own admission, this is more a grass roots issue than one that will make this list of grievances.

I'd settle for full audits (Transparency) at the National level first, so as to make it easier to educate the electorate, asap.All the while getting it done from the bottom up..

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:24 am

If the Occupy movement is a grassroots effort, then the grievances should include, at the TOP, a complaint about the obstruction of public banks by the international money cartel, which sits atop the corporate pyramid. Even if this demand is ignored, we are still educating others concerning the central problem.

If you leave this off, you are only offering band-aids, more false hope, like Obama, who is a tool of the private banks. They are his biggest cash supporters. Look at his cabinet: chief-of-staff Daley is "former" JPMorganChase and treasury secretary Geithner is "former" Goldman Sachs.

Here's the best analysis I've read since the late '60's on how the interlocking directories of the world's largest private banks and a few of their corporations, about 147 all tolled, control the rest:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html

So, are we going to live as slaves or are we going to abide by the words of the folks who had higher goals:

“If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
--Samuel Adams

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by Rccoving on Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:36 am

RAB,
Thank you for explaining it to me! That was fantastic. I'm still not sure that you have convinced me that this should be our top priority but you have given me a lot to think about and I appreciate it.
Thanks, RCC

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Re: We need only one demand

Post by RAB on Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:00 pm

Thanks, RCC, for appreciating that I'm just trying to make the strongest case I can. It's worth noting that the only two out-of-the-box Congressmen, Kucinich on the left and Paul on the right, both agree that the functions of the Fed need to be returned to public control. Their bills, however, have other problems. Kucinich supports the American Monetary Institute approach, which would only allow the government to create money, so all the banks would revert to depository-only institutions, or need to loan only the money they had on hand. This top-down, Soviet-style, command version of the banking system would be disastrous. In the North Dakota model, there is a very effective public-private partnership, which I see a good interim step. Paul's bill would return us to the gold standard. Gold is an easily manipulated commodity that is controlled by the same folks that own the Fed now, so this wouldn't get us anywhere. What the Public Banking Institute is proposing is a network of public banks -- city, county, state, and national -- to get the liquidity to Main Street, which is where most of the jobs are still created.

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