Realistic Online Polls

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Re: Realistic Online Polls

Post by PDT on Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:18 am

I'm not necessarily arguing with you Kathy, I'm just trying to shed light on the protesters feelings. As witnessed last night in New York, I am suspicious of government's intentions. Always.

According to Bloomberg, he has to deny the protester's first amendment rights in order to allow first amendment rights. He has to evict them, in order to protect them. Their message is getting drowned out in all of this. They are trying to create a new society. This isn't about fixing things through government. They don't trust their government, and neither do I. Not after I listen to that kind of doublespeak.

And I'm not saying they will be able to bring about great changes this way, but I sure as heck appreciate their effort.

Peace

-Paul

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Re: Realistic Online Polls

Post by randallburns on Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:25 pm

kathyhoganloryer wrote:I don't know how we got on to patenting genes, but I think our work should be about wealth disparity, and the rampant dealings of Wall Street in confiscating the wealth and buying the political process.

There are a thousands ills in the world, but in my view, Occupy Wall Street is about Wall Street, and I thin k that is where the focus should remain.

I'd prioritize this a little differently. I'd see it as making national law reflect national consensus. Now it happens that 90% of Americans polled want less wealth/income disparity(though I have a few doubts about the methods used in that particular poll)-which is one of the highest figures I've seen in an national poll. The thing is this: I don't think we can really rely on corporate sponsored polling agencies to necessarily do the polls a populist movement needs. We can use the existing poll data as a starting point-but ultimately it will mean developing an independent capability.


The occupy movement is not a cross section of american. I will succeed if it focuses on those issues around which there is a both an occupy activist consensus and national consensus-and that will require some care to really understand.

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Re: Realistic Online Polls

Post by RayArrowood on Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:02 pm

Here in California, the occupiers are cutting there own throats so to speak. Santa Cruz broke into two groups, mostly because the group got too big to deal with the internal conflicts.

Plus a lot of the homeless population doesn't care about what happens to the movement, which has added even more stress.

There is too much fighting between the factions in the large occupations, and very little focus on the root causes. The occupiers don't seem to realize that they made the 1% rich, and the solution is to stop buying all the junk and learn to live more simply on less.

There are one million new homeless people a year now, and we are just getting started. I'm willing to bet that one year from now, this movement will be much different.




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Re: Realistic Online Polls

Post by PDT on Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:19 am

Ray,
I agree that there is an element of what you describe going on at the occupations. But I also think there is an element that exists which understands the concepts of more simple and sustainable living. But for two reasons, I feel the occupations need to be supported and encouraged.

1 A physical presence, where people gather, talk to each other, and at the end of the day have at least one unified message "we are fed up with government as it currently is" or something along those lines is a good starting point.

2. The conflicts that are arising within the groups are natural and have to play themselves out. Human beings (even as we have seen here) do not all share the exact same opinions. But the dialogue that is going on will help people figure out, eventually, those things that must be done. At least, maybe, get people thinking about them.

What I hope comes of this is an awareness, that we all feel something similar, and need to act together in order to bring about change. The more that the government shuts them down, the more we see exactly what we are up against, and the more we have to encourage this activity.

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Re: Realistic Online Polls

Post by Brandon Harper on Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:20 am

You're right, Kathy. Occupy camps really don't have the right to impose their will on one another, and even if they had good reason there wouldn't be a practical means of enforcement. There shouldn't be, either, as that would obviously go against everything we're striving for. I think the intent of multiple camps petitioning an individual one, provided the circumstance that it somehow violates what is generally accepted as ethical code in the occupy movement, is to yield a psychological reaction among the public more than to attempt an exercise of conventional democratic power. An idea like the one I've mentioned would probably require a great deal of caution and may risk doing more harm than good. A motion equivalent to it, if executed properly, might prove to people that participants scattered across the occupy movement in the U.S. are capable of organizing for selected purposes.

Perhaps I feel urgently motivated to examine experimental options that might produce some kind of stable infrastructure among the whole of Occupy ASAP for reasons of pessimism. Things really have only been rolling for two months, but most of my fears operate from the following conditions of what seems to be consistent human behavior.

1: The public, in general, has a very short attention span. It is impressed upon easily by acute waves of frantic emotion that burn out like firecrackers, having quickly been drowned out by unrelated events.
2: People desire to be a component in something bigger than themselves, but, in general, desire minimal utilization of intellectual and physical effort necessary. This specifically seems to be the behavior of people who find strength with very numerous peers or with a hierarchy directing operations. Phrases like "I support" or "please support" are idle phrases from my experiences, as there's a vast difference between words and actions.
3: Procrastination. In general, members of our species prefer, even if a preemptive course of action is known, to react and adapt to concerned events and conditions if it requires an immediate solution.

I've seen quite a lot of concrete reasoning from people in this thread (as is typical in this forum), and it's given me a lot of perspective on what's happening. Personally, I don't think there's very much time before either interest in the resistance is lost or the government's accretion of power becomes irreversible, a process which will only accelerate exponentially if violence breaks out. What's happening right now is very, very important.

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